From: Paul Mison Date: 16:14 on 04 Sep 2003 Subject: I hate the Finder more each day Folder. List view. Nicely arranged. Create new folder. (Command Shift N. Huh.) Niggle the first: the folder is selected, but not editable. I have to hit return or enter to change the name. Niggle the second: the folder hasn't inherited the views of the previous folder. Like that'd be hard to accomplish. But no, I have to manually set it to list view. Then change all the column widths. Then remove or add any columns that were non-standard. Sigh. Of course, all you Unix people are probably looking at me like I'm odd. "Why should it inherit?" But that's what I'm used to. The old Finder used to manage to get both of the above niggles right. Sigh. I sense this could go on and on.
From: Chris Nandor Date: 16:20 on 04 Sep 2003 Subject: Re: I hate the Finder more each day At 16:14 +0100 2003.09.04, Paul Mison wrote: >I sense this could go on and on. There could be a separate mailing list, with volume equal to or exceeding this one, on the suckage of the Finder in Mac OS X.
From: Ann Barcomb Date: 16:37 on 04 Sep 2003 Subject: Re: I hate the Finder more each day There could almost be a seperate mailing list for Mac complaints. I was thinking of getting an iBook, but now I'm not sure. On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, Chris Nandor wrote: > There could be a separate mailing list, with volume equal to or exceeding > this one, on the suckage of the Finder in Mac OS X.
From: Chris Nandor Date: 16:38 on 04 Sep 2003 Subject: Re: I hate the Finder more each day At 08:37 -0700 2003.09.04, Ann Barcomb wrote: >There could almost be a seperate mailing list for Mac complaints. >I was thinking of getting an iBook, but now I'm not sure. If most of used Linux for the desktop -- or Windows! -- I think we'd see even more complaints. Or maybe we wouldn't, just because complaining about those two desktop OSes is so obvious and boring.
From: Ann Barcomb Date: 16:51 on 04 Sep 2003 Subject: Hating desktops (was Re: I hate the Finder more each day) On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, Chris Nandor wrote: > At 08:37 -0700 2003.09.04, Ann Barcomb wrote: > >There could almost be a seperate mailing list for Mac complaints. > >I was thinking of getting an iBook, but now I'm not sure. > > If most of used Linux for the desktop -- or Windows! -- I think we'd see > even more complaints. Or maybe we wouldn't, just because complaining about > those two desktop OSes is so obvious and boring. I am using X (FreeBSD) with a nice old window manager, olvwm (last modified in 1992 or so), and I don't really have complaints about it. So maybe I should hear your complaints on that, to better assess in what light to consider the Mac complaints. Maybe it's just not obvious to me? I am veering in to dangerous 'discussion' territory here, I fear. I'll try to post some complaints later to make up for it.
From: peter (Peter da Silva) Date: 17:12 on 04 Sep 2003 Subject: Re: Hating desktops > I am using X (FreeBSD) with a nice old window manager, olvwm (last > modified in 1992 or so), and I don't really have complaints about > it. So maybe I should hear your complaints on that, to better > assess in what light to consider the Mac complaints. Maybe it's > just not obvious to me? Hating X. I hate the fact that there's no file manager worth pouring out of a boot, I'll take Windows Explorer, Finder, Finder Classic, or even the old File and Program Managers in Windows 3.1 over ANY file manager for UNIX. I hate the fact that there's about 10 different toolkits all with different configuration mechanisms and slightly perverted variants of the good old X Resources, all of which look different. And act different. And sometimes act up when they meet each other. I hate the lack of non-geek software. Not that I use much of it, but I do use some (there is no universal geek). I hate the fact that if you're not running Red Hat Latest Version you have to spend way too much time compiling and building and in many cases porting software. The FreeBSD Ports collection solves a lot of this, except where some bastard software developers (some of whom are probably reading this) think it's just fine to make important options that you really need to tweak for your installation compile-time-only. I hate the way the "new desktops" seem to chew up almost as many computrons as Quartz and they still look like crap. And they STILL need geek-level skills to do basic configuration. It was better in the early '90s when many of the new toolkits were binary compatible with Athena Widgets, so your Xaw programs just picked up the new look-n-feel and actually started looking pretty nice, and you could add new APIs and still fall back... Oh well, we've passed a lot of water under the bridge since then.
From: David Cantrell Date: 10:00 on 05 Sep 2003 Subject: Re: Hating desktops (was Re: I hate the Finder more each day) On Thu, Sep 04, 2003 at 08:51:48AM -0700, Ann Barcomb wrote: > I am using X (FreeBSD) with a nice old window manager, olvwm (last > modified in 1992 or so) I confess to finding Openlook quite pleasant to use. That's the real Openlook on Solaris though, the free olvwm differs in enough subtle and minor ways to irritate me. So where's the hate? I hate Sun, because they are dropping Openlook to replace it with Gnome.
From: peter (Peter da Silva) Date: 10:38 on 05 Sep 2003 Subject: Re: Hating desktops (was Re: I hate the Finder more each day) > I confess to finding Openlook quite pleasant to use. That's the > real Openlook on Solaris though, the free olvwm differs in enough subtle > and minor ways to irritate me. Openlook scrollbars suck slimy sweatsocks through clogged sewer pipes. Unless you hate being able to see at a glance how much of a canvas is displayed.
From: David Champion Date: 18:37 on 05 Sep 2003 Subject: Re: Hating desktops (was Re: I hate the Finder more each day) * On 2003.09.05, in <20030905100007.A15128@xxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xx.xx>, * "David Cantrell" <david@xxxxxxxx.xxx.xx> wrote: > > I hate Sun, because they are dropping Openlook to replace it with Gnome. I can't stand Openlook. I was glad to see it go. Fewer stupid Openlook toolkit apps to sleaze around on my fine desktop and make it look bad. But it was already gone, even before Gnome arrived. Sun couldn't pull together a production schedule on Gnome to make it show up in time for an even transition from OL/CDE to Gnome; they had instead to first deprecate OL, then phase it out to CDE, then deprecate CDE to Gnome. Lame. There's something I hate about this shift, though. Some of the little utility apps were nice to have, even if they were written as OL apps. I think especially of audiocontrol. Hey, a good idea, having a program to control your levels and channels. It was alright, as openlook apps go. Or maybe it just filled a void, without being completely evil. But when they took out Openlook, they took out audiocontrol. Didn't rewrite it in Gtk, or CDE or Athena. No, they rewrote in Java, as "sdtaudiocontrol". It takes a good 30 seconds to load and run on my 500 MHz IIi. And then it's godawful slow to use, too. And I have to keep a bleeding JVM loaded for as long as I might want to adjust audio settings, or else go for another quart of coffee while I wait for it to load next time around. They rewrote it all in Java. Boneheads. Idiots. Jesus Xrist, McNealy, have some courage to admit you were wrong. I don't have time or talent to fix everything, but that had to be remedied. So I wrote more software that you're welcome to hate, if you also hate sdtaudiocontrol. http://home.uchicago.edu/~dgc/sw/audioctl-0.1.tar.gz It wasn't enough to keep me from slowly, ever so slowly, swallowing my pride and switching to a Mac for my desktop needs, though. (And there's a lot of pride to swallow, where Macs and I meet.) It's not the best desktop I've ever had, but since Apple bought back the family, it's the closest I'll ever get again. Which leads to all the things I hate about MacOS, just for not being OpenStep. I'll hold onto those for a while longer, but I think Java might figure into them, too.
From: David Cantrell Date: 16:40 on 04 Sep 2003 Subject: Re: I hate the Finder more each day On Thu, Sep 04, 2003 at 08:37:38AM -0700, Ann Barcomb wrote: > There could almost be a seperate mailing list for Mac complaints. > I was thinking of getting an iBook, but now I'm not sure. I could post a whole load of Hate about Linux desktops and about Windows, but even thinking about it makes me ill so I won't.
From: peter (Peter da Silva) Date: 16:57 on 04 Sep 2003 Subject: Re: I hate the Finder more each day > There could almost be a seperate mailing list for Mac complaints. I think the thing that bugs me about it is that it's so much closer to the ideal that the remaining gratuitous stupidity just stands out so much more. > I was thinking of getting an iBook, but now I'm not sure. I could fire up a Windows flame or a UNIX flame for each Mac OS X flame. Without breaking a sweat. For example, after the Nth person posted a link to the "Mac Killed My Inner Child" video, I posted: It's not nearly so funny after you've just had Windows pop up a dialog box while you're typing and you go "oh, shit, what did I just respond to and what did I say?" and the next thing you know your VPN link is down and you've got to start over configuring that damn router at the other end of it, and you think "damn, I wish the VPN client *was* jumping up and down like a Jack Russel Terrier instead of slapping a freaking dialog window in my face when I'm trying to bloody WORK", and then it hits you that he's talking about OS 9 and OS X in the same sentence and getting everything mixed up anyway, and you're so bleeding pissed with Windows you try and hit the "mute" button and he keeps on talking and now he's hidden behind a Word window and you can't get it out of the way because there's another dialog box up and so you click on the little speaker in the taskbar and you wait and wait and wait while Windows thinks about your request and plays with itself or whatever it's doing in the several seconds between the time you click on that icon and the control comes up so you lean over your desk to yank the power cord and pull your back and you remember how the goddam workmans comp people are still going after you for something that they screwed up 3 years ago and the next thing you know you're hanging from the third floor window trying to keep from getting dragged out after the PC by the power cord wrapped around your ankle and your back's burning and you wish you had a Mac. (pause for logo) My name's Peter da Silva, and I use Windows.
From: Ann Barcomb Date: 17:11 on 04 Sep 2003 Subject: Re: I hate the Finder more each day On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, Peter da Silva wrote: > I could fire up a Windows flame or a UNIX flame for each Mac OS X flame. > > Without breaking a sweat. Please do. The UNIX ones, at any rate. I am not looking for additional reasons to dislike Windows, I'm trying to evaluate OS X.
From: Paul Mison Date: 16:58 on 04 Sep 2003 Subject: Re: I hate the Finder more each day On 04/09/2003 at 08:37 -0700, Ann Barcomb wrote: >There could almost be a seperate mailing list for Mac complaints. >I was thinking of getting an iBook, but now I'm not sure. The complaints are mainly because us old-timers are used to things being better, once upon a time, UI-wise anyway, than they are now. Mac users are picky sods, all told. Just read a couple of John Gruber articles. I mean, if I even *try* to use the Windows (file) Explorer, let alone any of the bloated abortions the open-source people have invented (say hello, very very briefly, Nautilus, before you die in a flurry of repeating error messages that fill the sub-Windows 95 taskbar analogue), I am so filled with paroxysms of hate that I can barely actually get to a mail client to enter them into a computer. Therefore I avoid this situation, compared to which the Mac OS X Finder, even with all its faults, is a very happy place indeed, somewhat akin to a beach on a tropical island that's just a little less sunny and warm than the one on the neighbouring island which we had to vacate, because the volcano in the middle kept exploding inconveniently, but which is still much nicer than the resort on the Costa Del Sol everyone else seems happy to stick with. (Well, except for those nuts who go hiking in the mountains. Everyone else thinks it's cold and wet, but they do it anyway. Loons.) Of course, if you're coming from Unix, you probably won't mind using the command line for everything anyway, but I happen to like seeing files stay where I put them on a visual field. Freaky, I know.
From: peter (Peter da Silva) Date: 17:20 on 04 Sep 2003 Subject: Re: I hate the Finder more each day > The complaints are mainly because us old-timers are used to things > being better, once upon a time, UI-wise anyway, than they are now. > Mac users are picky sods, all told. Just read a couple of John Gruber > articles. I'm not much of an old-time Mac user. I've had a series of obsolete Macs from the original onwards, but I could never use them as my main computer because I couldn't deal with the volcano. Windows Explorer isn't bad. At least Windows has a sane key-bindings scheme as opposed to the Mac's reluctant transition from meta-key phobic that's left us with a hodgepodge of function/control/opt/command/corner/click bindings that don't follow any kind of sane scheme. But combined with UNIX under the hood, it's closer to "the best of both worlds" than just about anything I've used. It's just... still got some issues.
From: peter (Peter da Silva) Date: 16:44 on 04 Sep 2003 Subject: Re: I hate the Finder more each day > Niggle the first: the folder is selected, but not editable. I have to > hit return or enter to change the name. Yeh, I couldn't figure out what I was doing. I'd create a folder then start typing and jump all over the window... what the hell? I was so happy when I caught on to "hit return first" I don't care any more. > Niggle the second: the folder hasn't inherited the views of the > previous folder. Like that'd be hard to accomplish. But no, I have to > manually set it to list view. Then change all the column widths. Then > remove or add any columns that were non-standard. This is annoying, at least for folders that didn't have their own settings. If they do... > Of course, all you Unix people are probably looking at me like I'm > odd. "Why should it inherit?" But that's what I'm used to. The old > Finder used to manage to get both of the above niggles right. You sure? I'm pretty sure it just opened a new window with the default settings. I'll have to fire up my 7200 and check. You're not thinking about tapping the triangle to expend the subfolder. Or did you have some kind of extension that made Finder open folders in the same window? One thing I don't like about Finder is that the toolbar and the "open in new window" behaviour are mysteriously linked. I don't get that. Oh well, next version will have a castrated toolbar, so I won't care. I'll have all new things to hate.
From: Paul Mison Date: 17:04 on 04 Sep 2003 Subject: Re: I hate the Finder more each day On 04/09/2003 at 10:44 -0500, Peter da Silva wrote: >I was so happy when I caught on to "hit return first" I don't care >any more. I don't quite seem to have got that habit. Mind you, I've barely got used to remembering to hold down 'shift'. >You sure? I'm pretty sure it just opened a new window with the default >settings. I'll have to fire up my 7200 and check. You're not thinking >about tapping the triangle to expend the subfolder. Or did you have some >kind of extension that made Finder open folders in the same window? If you create a new folder in the Mac OS Finder, it inherits the view settings of the parent, except for the position, which moves about ten pixels down and to the right. Possibly with the exception of a new folder on the desktop, which would indeed default to the, well, default view. (Trundles over to the test Mac.) Yes, this is the case. If you didn't use the Finder, it wouldn't inherit either. This is a shame, and admittedly inconsistent, but the way to fix it is not to break the Finder but to patch the 'new folder' call from the file dialog so that that also makes windows inherit properly. Bah. >One thing I don't like about Finder is that the toolbar and the "open in >new window" behaviour are mysteriously linked. > >I don't get that. Me neither. I hate that sodding toolbar and I wish it'd remember when I told it to close it and let it NEVER COME BACK. Maybe, you know, it should be in View Options, like all the other stuff that's neither scriptable (sigh) or remembered (sigh).
From: peter (Peter da Silva) Date: 17:22 on 04 Sep 2003 Subject: Re: I hate the Finder more each day > If you create a new folder in the Mac OS Finder, it inherits the view > settings of the parent, except for the position, which moves about > ten pixels down and to the right. Ah... OK. I'm thinking of "I changed this folder, now I want to see the same view in the next folder I open" which is one of the things Windows lets you do that I miss. I love the toolbar. Nyah.
From: Piers Cawley Date: 09:38 on 05 Sep 2003 Subject: Re: I hate the Finder more each day Paul Mison <paulm@xxxx.xxx> writes: > On 04/09/2003 at 10:44 -0500, Peter da Silva wrote: >>I was so happy when I caught on to "hit return first" I don't care >>any more. > > I don't quite seem to have got that habit. Mind you, I've barely got > used to remembering to hold down 'shift'. > >>You sure? I'm pretty sure it just opened a new window with the default >>settings. I'll have to fire up my 7200 and check. You're not thinking >>about tapping the triangle to expend the subfolder. Or did you have some >>kind of extension that made Finder open folders in the same window? > > If you create a new folder in the Mac OS Finder, it inherits the view > settings of the parent, except for the position, which moves about ten > pixels down and to the right. Possibly with the exception of a new > folder on the desktop, which would indeed default to the, well, > default view. (Trundles over to the test Mac.) Yes, this is the case. > > If you didn't use the Finder, it wouldn't inherit either. This is a > shame, and admittedly inconsistent, but the way to fix it is not to > break the Finder but to patch the 'new folder' call from the file > dialog so that that also makes windows inherit properly. Bah. Presumably the information about the view preferences is hidden somewhere in .DS_Store? >>One thing I don't like about Finder is that the toolbar and the "open in >>new window" behaviour are mysteriously linked. >> >>I don't get that. > > Me neither. I hate that sodding toolbar and I wish it'd remember when > I told it to close it and let it NEVER COME BACK. Maybe, you know, it > should be in View Options, like all the other stuff that's neither > scriptable (sigh) or remembered (sigh). Personally, I want the NeXT shelf back. It's probably possible to get the behaviours you want by APEing it, but I'm not about to go trying it myself in the immediate future.
From: peter (Peter da Silva) Date: 10:19 on 05 Sep 2003 Subject: Re: I hate the Finder more each day > Personally, I want the NeXT shelf back. It's probably possible to get > the behaviours you want by APEing it, but I'm not about to go trying > it myself in the immediate future. http://homepage.mac.com/khsu/XShelf/XShelf.html
From: Piers Cawley Date: 15:05 on 05 Sep 2003 Subject: Re: I hate the Finder more each day peter@xxxxxxx.xxx (Peter da Silva) writes: >> Personally, I want the NeXT shelf back. It's probably possible to get >> the behaviours you want by APEing it, but I'm not about to go trying >> it myself in the immediate future. > > http://homepage.mac.com/khsu/XShelf/XShelf.html Not the same thing. But very handy.
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